The Golden Ratio - Hidde van der Ploeg
S1E2 - The Golden Ratio - Hidde van der Ploeg
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[00:00:00] Hidde van der Ploeg: You have the golden ratio, of course. Of course, there's a thing called the golden ratio has been invented a long time ago and similar to an aspect ratio, uh, you 16 by nine.
[00:00:13] Antoine van der Lee: Welcome to the next episode of going in the deep podcast that dives deep into the world of independent creators and developers. In this episode, we'll sit down with Ploeg.
He's been an Indie developer since 2021 and the creator behind several successful apps like Gola, NowPlaying, and most recently Helm, a native AppStore Connect client. I'm incredibly excited to talk with Hidde, since he's originally a designer and taught himself to code. Enjoy this episode. Welcome to this interview.
Indie Dev.
[00:00:46] Hidde van der Ploeg: Now
[00:00:46] Antoine van der Lee: you can pitch while being on the beach.
[00:00:50] Hidde van der Ploeg: Welcome Hidde. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to be here. Hidde van der Ploeg. Van der Ploeg. Yeah. I'm
[00:00:55] Antoine van der Lee: probably the only interviewer that can
[00:00:57] Hidde van der Ploeg: pronounce that correctly. It is a tough one. It is a tough one for sure. How are you doing? Good. Good. It's summer. It's good.
Life is good.
[00:01:05] Antoine van der Lee: In between festivals is what I understood. In between
[00:01:07] Hidde van der Ploeg: festivals. Going on the boats.
[00:01:10] Antoine van der Lee: One week later and it would be, uh, elevator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:15] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah.
[00:01:15] Antoine van der Lee: Right. Yeah. So, um, we know each other. Makes it much easier for me, but, um, we have pretty well listeners here that don't know you, probably. Yeah.
Can you give a short introduction where you are? Sure.
[00:01:26] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, well, my name is Hidde. It's like hidden without the N. That's how I always explain it to people that are non Dutch. Um, Leeuwarden up north in the Netherlands. Um, and I've been designing apps for, um, I think 15 years now, 16 years. And then ever since I got fascinated by apps and, uh, worked my way, uh, to become an indie dev at somehow, yeah.
[00:01:55] Antoine van der Lee: Well, that was the episode. That was the episode. Thanks.
[00:01:58] Hidde van der Ploeg: No, yeah, I think. I think my journey is a bit, it's, it's not the most usual journey for an indie developer. I think, like I said, I used to work for an agency as a designer doing a lots of different apps for both Android and iPhone and iPad designing, designing, just design, visual design.
Yeah. Yeah. I was, code scared me. I thought HTML was code basically. Um, Yeah. But I always found it so magical that when I made something and I would hand off the design to a developer that like a few hours or a day later, I would get it running on a device and it was actually working and it did things.
And I thought like, wow, at some point I want to be able to do that. And well, as creative mind, you always have ideas. So you always make concepts. And as a designer, I think. If there are any designers watching, every designer probably has three different files with ideas of things that they want to build, but don't want to find a partner with, because it's, it's hard to sell an idea to make someone really enthusiastic about an idea if it's your own idea already.
Um, so at some point I'm like, ah, how hard can it be? I'll just learn how to code. I'll just do that on the side. Um, it was a bit harder than anticipated, but I got there eventually.
[00:03:20] Antoine van der Lee: But how, how did you, how did you do that? Like, how did you pick your language to, to write code in? Oh, yeah. And when, when did you start that coding journey?
[00:03:30] Hidde van der Ploeg: I started with like a tutorial, uh, an Objective C tutorial to create a to do list. So what was
[00:03:37] Antoine van der Lee: it in the Objective C? It was Objective C. Right. So this is quite a long time. Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:41] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. Um. Uh, that was the first time I really gave it a shot and I tried some tutorials and I could recreate the tutorials.
I even shipped an app somehow, uh, in Objective C, um, But, uh, when I needed to update something, I always got stuck because I, I could follow the tutorial, but I didn't really understand it objective C still. So I still had to ask a lot of my developer friends, like, Hey, how, how would I do this? Um, and then I quite quickly.
quickly gave up and then Swift came around the corner and Swift looked like something more legible, more, more human and more easier to understand. And of course, the experience with Objective C helped, but, um, yeah, that's where I really like, okay, now I'm going to create a new app. I'm going to follow some tutorials, but only to get, certain things that I want to have done.
So I think that made a really small app that focused on one API. Cause I figured if I know how to connect to one Apple's APIs, then I could easily transfer that knowledge to do more things and actually build an app. So, yeah, kept it very small and focused, I
[00:04:49] Antoine van der Lee: think. So basically the first, App or apps that you build were basically a combination of, of several tutorials that you found on the web and you combine those.
It's like,
[00:04:57] Hidde van der Ploeg: Oh, I want to present this in a, in a modal, like, okay, how do you present in a modal? Like follow a tutorial on modals probably. And then step by step, it slowly became like a, a Frankenstein app of copy and paste, but it worked. And as someone you learn what works and why it works. And then. Yeah, like, uh, you'll refactor it later anyway if you, if you know as gross.
[00:05:20] Antoine van der Lee: So, and what was that first app that you released? Because that is quite a big milestone as a designer. Yeah. Getting your first thing out that you completely built yourself.
[00:05:28] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah, obviously the first one was, was, was a to do list app and it was, it, it was just Jotting down items and you could, it was a pool instead of a pool to refresh.
It had a pool to create new item. That was the biggest challenge.
[00:05:42] Antoine van der Lee: Custom animation. Yeah.
[00:05:43] Hidde van der Ploeg: Well, yeah. Mainly just to override the pool to refresh, uh, interaction. Yeah. But I thought it was like a really nice way to quickly jot down items, like for a grocery list or whatever. Yeah. But that, that one I deprecated really fast because it was an objective C and I didn't really understand how I did it.
So then the first, the first, my first official baby, I would say it was a weight tracking app called Fact. And that, with that one I was just focusing on HealthKit and, uh, HealthKit just introduced it. Uh, was just introduced and adding weight to health app was very cumbersome. So I was like, ah, I'll just focus on adding weight really easily and quickly.
And from there on, it grew to adding watchOS apps and widgets and whatever came along. I'll just use that project to learn more about new things basically.
[00:06:36] Antoine van der Lee: Right. So you started with a really isolated thing. Actually, which year are we talking about? This 2017 or something?
[00:06:43] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, I think this was the year the watch came out, actually.
So that's almost, yeah, 2013, I think. Oh, 2014, 2014.
[00:06:51] Antoine van der Lee: Okay. Yeah. That's a long, long, long way back. Yeah. You already mentioned it, but I think many people that follow you know that you're a big watch fan, isn't it?
[00:07:00] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. Yeah. I was, I always liked the, I was, I was like the form factor of the watch. It's just, it's, I've done some presentations about watchOS and the reason why I think watchOS is very undervalued still by a lot of developers, because it re it really helps you become a better designer as well, because it really forces you to.
Make an app do one thing really well, or maybe a few things, but at least per screen focus on doing one thing. And that's where I see a lot of developers, um, go wrong in the sense of they put all features in one single screen. Well, it's a lot easier to digest if it's just focused on doing one thing. And I think that's why I love to watch them because it forces you to do that because it's so tiny.
And with the eye, iPhone and iPad, especially, it's like, you have so much screen space. It's like, you can just put it everywhere, but it's not always the best thing to do.
[00:07:54] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. You have a really, really small screen. And also the options in terms of designing the app are quite limited. Yeah.
[00:08:00] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. So, and that's good.
Especially if you're, uh, not a designer by, by heart. Yeah. Then it's good to not be able to do everything sometimes.
[00:08:10] Antoine van der Lee: But that, that's my point, right? Like you have your own vision as a designer and, and you kind of like get Yeah. Kind of tools that Apple gives you. Yeah. How do you still like fulfill your own, yeah, itch in a way, right?
Like.
[00:08:21] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. But for me, it worked the other way around because I wanted to design everything like fancy and flashy. Yeah. Because of the limitations of the watchOS, it forces me to keep it. Uh, technically possible and therefore it was easier for me to learn also like what's technically possible and like respect the, the system components a bit more, um, because every developer that worked with the designer knows, especially if it's a junior designer, like often you get a design that's like nearly impossible to, to make, or it's going to take like a half a year to build.
Yeah. Um, I think it's a good practice for from a design point of view to understand what technically is possible. So that's you need to find that middle ground. Basically,
[00:09:06] Antoine van der Lee: if you always been like that as a designer, when you started, you know, you you. You come from a design background, you already had experience designing it, right?
So you knew kind of like the possibilities, um, but then you start building your own apps and you suddenly have to, you know, you can't just throw it to the developer. You suddenly have to deal with the challenges yourself. And did you face some, You know, like reality there for yourself. Like, Oh damn. Okay.
Oh,
[00:09:30] Hidde van der Ploeg: a hundred percent. Yeah. If you, I think if you look at the first sketch file for, uh, for my, for my fact app, the design was completely different than the first version that I launched, it was a lot of thin lines and custom, everything, custom keyboards. I think even custom, everything was custom. And as I implemented, like, as it's still like the.
The layout is still, was still similar to the original, uh, idea, but at least the styling was more, more respectful to the system because it's like, yeah, I already have a problem like getting a navigation bar to, to work properly. Nevermind, uh, getting it be custom as well.
[00:10:11] Antoine van der Lee: So basically building your own apps made you a better designer.
[00:10:14] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. A hundred percent. I think so. Yeah. I mean, with all skills, it's the repetition that makes you better, right? They all say like, it takes you a thousand hours to learn a new skill. I think it, it is the first thousand hours to learn it, but then the next million or so to actually like, you always can become better at a certain skill.
So the more you do it and the more, and now, now I'm more in the middle ground where I really. Yeah. I can develop quite fast and understand what, what's possible, but I also still like to challenge myself and, and see, uh, see what's, what, what, how I can,
[00:10:49] Antoine van der Lee: uh, push the barrier a bit. Yeah. So you started as a designer and you, you became more interested in building stuff yourself and eventually you made your first weight tracking app, um, that was on the side from, from, that was on the
[00:11:01] Hidde van der Ploeg: side.
A hundred
[00:11:02] Antoine van der Lee: percent. So you started kind of as a side project. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
[00:11:04] Hidde van der Ploeg: As we all do. As we
[00:11:06] Antoine van der Lee: all do. As we all do. Well, I happen to make a course about going from a side project to going Indie. So maybe, maybe can you take us a bit on that journey? Like how, how did, how did you transform your side project into something that's now your main job?
[00:11:18] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, yeah, that's a good question. I think. For me, if to begin with this side project was all, has always been about learning new things. So everything I built, uh, was of course to solve the problem, but also to learn something new. So I think literally, like I said, literally the second update, I added a watchOS app because I wanted to learn, like I shipped an iPhone app.
Now I wanted to know how to push that to watchOS as well. And then. Every, every updates that I gave to that app was to learn a new skill. And with that, the app grow, uh, grows. And with that, you, you get, at some point you get some, if you're lucky, get some publications writing about you. Um, but I think the key thing here is that it will always take time.
And I think, um, what Jordy does really well is like, he, he, he tries out a lot of things. And then some, some work, some don't, but, uh, that's the reality of it. You don't always know what's going to work. So
[00:12:21] Antoine van der Lee: you're only from the previous episode. Oh yeah. Sorry.
[00:12:25] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, I think it's a really good practice to, to make, uh, learning the key aspect of what you do, because then it's fun because you feel like you're growing in skillset.
And as long as you're having fun, it doesn't feel like work. And as long as it doesn't feel like work, it's easy to do on the side. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. Over, over time, like, all my apps have started out with a little experiment of, Oh, I want to learn this new API. Yeah. And, and I think that's, that works really well for me.
It doesn't have to say that it works for everyone as well, but I think the key there is like, learn something new. Yeah.
[00:13:03] Antoine van der Lee: So you do that on the site. Yeah. On the site. You grow your way tracking app. Yeah. Was the way tracking app the, the reason that you could go in here? No.
[00:13:11] Hidde van der Ploeg: No, no, no, definitely not. Uh, I mean it brought in some cash, but, uh, and it grew over, over time, of course.
Um, but, uh, eventually I think it's accumulation of multiple apps that, that made me switch. Uh, and yeah, I think that's, that's, that's what I mean with don't assume that your first app is going to be a gold, gold, uh, gold luck. Yeah. Um, And you'll switch within half a year or so. Just that's what I mean. We try out new ideas and but if you have a multiple apps, sometimes you don't even have to update it every month or so.
Just if it's there, it will bring in some money. And accumulating it will become more and more. And at some point you feel confident enough.
[00:13:55] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, yeah. And every app brings in not only money but also experience. A hundred percent, yeah. You get, To know unknown ground, like you said, like you build a watchOS app, so you know how to build a watchOS app, maybe sometimes you suddenly did an iPad app.
Yeah. You're not so much a Mac, I think, yet?
[00:14:12] Hidde van der Ploeg: No, until recently, of course, yeah, with, uh, with Helm. I, that was my first Mac OS app. That was quite a fun experience. Yeah, yeah. Because, because it's quite different.
[00:14:23] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, Helm is, is, um, can you explain what Helm is?
[00:14:25] Hidde van der Ploeg: Helm is a, is a native Mac OS app for, for App Store Connect.
Yeah. Um, because as an indie, you ship a lot of updates, uh, for a lot of different apps. So I was quite, uh, annoyed with, uh, How, how I had to log into AppStore Connect every time. And I didn't like the other options that much. So I decided to work on a native Mac app for AppStore Connect. It will introduce some AI features to make my life easier.
And everyone's life easier than Chip's app, I hope.
[00:14:52] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. And this is an example of something recently where you still got to learn a new platform, even though you build apps for it. Well, since the objective, so that's like a hundred years or something. Yeah,
[00:15:03] Hidde van der Ploeg: I think this is, this is, uh, honestly, I think SwiftUI, I get a lot of trouble for it's like, uh, it's the build one use everywhere.
And that's not necessarily true as, as like you can ever use everything, but it is like, it was not, it didn't feel like a new skill to learn, uh, to, to build a macOS app because I've built apps for all the other platforms in SwiftUI. So. Of course, there's always limitations that you reach and you always have to find solutions, but that's part of the job to find solutions.
And instead of an UI image, you use an NS image, but a lot of the things are like very similar. Yeah. Um, and I think that's the, that's really powerful. And this is also a really, what I've been saying to other designers as well, like there's no better time to start building your side projects than today.
Because if you don't understand anything, you don't even have to find the right stack overflow thing anymore. You can ask a tools like Claudio, ChatGPT to help you out and learn by copy, learn by copy pasting. Yeah. And
[00:16:05] Antoine van der Lee: I think tools like Figma now even integrate code. Um, I think if we compare SwiftUI with, with Objective C where you started, it's It's 90 day difference.
It's insane. And it
[00:16:16] Hidde van der Ploeg: even looks like, uh, like Framer was a very popular tool for prototyping. Uh, now they pivoted to a website tool, but it was super popular back in the day and it was all CoffeeScript. So you wrote CoffeeScript and then you saw Canvas on the right, which is very similar to what now SwiftUI is with SwiftUI preview.
It literally looks the same. Yeah. Exactly. The difference now is if you press. build. It actually runs on your phone and actually you could potentially ship it to the app store. So it's,
[00:16:43] Antoine van der Lee: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think many designers are intimidated and think they can't build something? Oh, yeah.
[00:16:49] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. A hundred percent.
Knowing, knowing designers, knowing myself as a designer, uh, back in the day, I know. We, we spend too much time thinking about, uh, the problems to solve and how to solve it. And then we think about the aesthetics and the feel, feelings of, of a product that how and how we convey that. And then everything that slightly looks technical can scare off quite a bit because it doesn't.
Feel like the tools that we're used to, it doesn't have a pen tool. It doesn't have a draw rectangle tool. It doesn't, uh, especially draw rectangles, very popular, I guess. But it doesn't have like the styling layers, uh, styling and layers that, that you grew up as a designer. You used to having layers and you work with that.
Where in code. You somewhat have layers, but they don't look like layers as we used to. So I think that scares off most people. Yeah. Yeah. But then there's a whole performance thing, of course, as well. What do you mean by that? Like code should be performant in some way at some point, if it gets too complicated.
Right. Right.
[00:17:55] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. You start to hit challenges and you need to overcome those. Yeah, and hiccups and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in a way, SwiftUI is making, Making it so easy to build apps, right? Like, um, we just had a chat with the editor as well. He told me like, um, I w I would love to be able to build apps.
Well, in a way it's basically just a decision of doing it rather than possibility, right? Like nowadays the tools are so much better and so much.
[00:18:21] Hidde van der Ploeg: Oh yeah. It's, it's so easy. And I think a good example. Especially if you get familiar with it. The good example is, uh, when I made the chat GPT app for Apple, what's called PT, that it, it blew up in popularity.
But the fun thing is I made the original app in like 20 minutes because I had some experience with, with the open AI API from another app. And then I, I had a working prototype in 20 minutes, I think, maybe half an hour. And then I spent the rest of the day designing a little robot because I wanted to make it look friendly and happy instead of technical.
[00:18:59] Antoine van der Lee: The identity of the app.
[00:19:00] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the design part still cost me more time than coding in this case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:08] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. But that's fascinating, right? You can lose yourself in the design as well in a way, but the coding part is not so difficult is what you're saying in a way.
[00:19:17] Hidde van der Ploeg: It's, it gets difficult at some point, of course, but, um, depending how crazy you get, but the UI coding, most of the time, it's quite straightforward if you keep it simple.
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Visit goingindie. com and let's make your indie dreams a reality. So you mentioned PD, um, we discovered, uh, Helm, you have a few more, now playing. Yeah. Um, at a certain point there was a Um, decision moment where you really made yourself fully independent. And I know you're still doing client work mostly for reasons, but not per se because you need it.
[00:20:57] Hidde van der Ploeg: No.
[00:20:57] Antoine van der Lee: Um, when was that point where you really knew like, okay, I'm now going to take the leap and fully focus on my own business.
[00:21:05] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, I, I think when I was in my nine to five job, the thing I realized, the thing I love most doing most is building projects, building things, um, and the things that I like the least for clients.
But then, so I, at that point I decided to go freelance and to balance things a bit more. So I would take on bigger projects that would. Give me a lot of runway and then take that project, finish with a project and then burn that runway till was like nearly burned down and then take on new projects and then basically balance the difference between freelance projects and, and my own apps more and more till I could fully, uh, complete.
Yeah. Stop doing client work. Yeah. You're talking about income then. Yeah. By income. Yeah. Because that's, that's the main reason why we don't, we're not all in these, right? Because we still need income and you need to have a source of income. Yeah. Um, so I think in that regard, I, It really helped me because with the client work, I still, it still, um, forced me to do different type of styles because my client work was always design, of course.
And, and then I could bring learnings over. I could also talk to other developers of clients, uh, because most of the time it were, there were iOS apps anyway, so I could even then talk with. Developers that were working at the clients, like, how would you do this to learn from a person, not only from tutorials.
And then as soon as income was good enough on, on the product side of things, then I could, like I do now, I only do client work for clients that I really like or for projects that I really like.
[00:22:51] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. You're in a luxury position. Yeah. It's an, it's an optional,
[00:22:55] Hidde van der Ploeg: it's not a, it's not a mandatory thing. Yeah.
[00:22:58] Antoine van der Lee: But this is a nice segue, right? Like, um, You're a designer and you obviously have your personal style. Um, yeah, if you, if you know, hit us apps, you know, like you, you can tell you have your own style, but it could also be a limitation in a way, right? Like if you constantly work on your own stuff, you don't necessarily get the inspiration that you would otherwise get from challenges.
Clients. Yeah. How do you keep yourself inspired and up to date with the latest trends?
[00:23:23] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that's, I think, uh, if most designers will agree, it's really hard to step away from your own style because every, every designer has their own, uh, style. I have a couple of good friends and I can easily tell who, like who of my friends made it.
And like a client work really helps you work in different brandings already because they often have already style settled. So it really helps you push the boundary of working in your safe space. Um, but in the end, it's also okay to have your own style, right? As long as you're, as it feels like this is your, you're agreed to this style.
You, you love this style. You, you agree with how it looks and this is how your apps look and feel. Um, yeah. Then you should just accept it and not always try to be different for the sake of being different because you're not good at that other style from the beginning. It's an, it's again, it's a learning curve, like every style has a, has a learning curve as well.
And inspiration for me can come from anywhere. Like I of course look at other apps that I really like and things like, Oh, this is a clever solution to that, or this is a clever visual identity that fits that app. Yeah. Um, Yeah. Um, but in the end, what style fits with your app is really a feeling based thing, and it's really hard to train.
Um, but if I would give one tip is like, what is the target audience of, of, of this app and what is it that you want to achieve? want the app to, um, uh, yeah, come across for like, like a good example. I think with Gola is I tried to make it, it's Gola is quite different than now playing with now playing a superficial and focused on the artwork and the music where Gola, I really wanted to make it feel more personal.
Because it's about your own goals that you're tracking. Right. So it should feel very human and personal and not as like, like a bank, very straight and serious. So I tried to make it a bit more fun with every now and then some like more like hand drawn things and scribbles here and there just to, to get a feel for more organic and personal touch.
And I think this is something that's really difficult to do, but like creating a mood board of like this. So this is somewhat of the vibe that my app should have is a really good practice to do.
[00:25:52] Antoine van der Lee: And so mood boards are also a great way for inspiration, right? Like you need to find sources, you need, you need to build that ID that you have visually in a way.
[00:26:01] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think, um, a common misconception about mood boards is that they have to be with, with app designers, that they have to be other apps or other UI, uh, please don't, please also just add. Just scenes from films or cars, car designs or landscapes, even for colors, if you like. I, I always, um, I, I have, I collect a lot of, um, source material, but a lot of it is, are also just random pictures of.
Uh, of old posters or animals that I really think the colors are like really cool from just to, to go through. If I start a new project with where, which need a new style, I just go through all those inspirations and then pick from there. And then like, this is the vibe that I wanted to have a little bit.
[00:26:51] Antoine van der Lee: And then how, how do you, how do you process that into like a UI then? Right. Like,
[00:26:55] Hidde van der Ploeg: yeah. That's a, um, I think it's a lot of trial and error. It's like, sometimes you think, oh, these colors would work amazing for this. And then you use it on an, on a UI, especially with fonts. So it's really the colors that you pick out.
Out of any resource. I now
[00:27:11] Antoine van der Lee: see a picture of a, of a tiger somewhere. For example, a
[00:27:14] Hidde van der Ploeg: tiger has amazing orange tones to them, right? Right. Like orange, browny tones.
[00:27:18] Antoine van der Lee: And do you literally pick colors?
[00:27:20] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. Yeah. I pick a couple often because it's not always the first one. And. Like I said, they have, I always test it on, on a device to see what, how does the colors feel like on the device?
Um, And if I think this, this works great, this is a strong color for this app. Then the first thing you do is make the standard accent color. The primary color. The primary color, that color. Cause I think that's what Apple tries to force you to do as well. That's when you create a new project, you have like the one accent color that's by default blue.
Try to play with that and see which color fits your app. Yeah. The best. Yeah. Like fits the vibe of your app best. Yeah. If you start with just that color. Yeah. And then use like the secondary and the territory area and the granary ones.
[00:28:08] Antoine van der Lee: The, the standard color from Apple. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:10] Hidde van der Ploeg: Well, those are based, based on your, on your technical.
Then you already have a whole color palette and it already makes it feel more like yours. Yeah. Um. I mean, I think last year or two years ago, nowadays you use foreground style, for example, instead of foreground color. And even then, if you do the accent color and you can whack a dot tertiary on, Apple will create the tertiary color for you.
So you don't even have to pick another color to do that anymore.
[00:28:41] Antoine van der Lee: Right, right, right. Yeah. Those are like the SwiftUI APIs that changed. Yeah, exactly. Cause
[00:28:45] Hidde van der Ploeg: even Apple noticed probably that it is really difficult to pick colors. And. As long as you, if you start with one and you can make a lot of, um, variations based on that one, it's a lot easier already to make it feel similar.
[00:29:01] Antoine van der Lee: Right. Right. So to, to rewind a little bit back, right? Like inspiration. And, um, do you still take clients on just for the sake of making sure you're still up to date or get more inspiration? Yeah,
[00:29:16] Hidde van der Ploeg: a hundred percent. Yeah. Um, Yes. And yes and no. Yeah. It depends. It really depends on the client. Yeah. Um, sometimes it's really to get myself out of the hitter box and sometimes it's just because I think it's a really cool product to work for.
But yeah, inspiration can literally come from anywhere. So don't, don't, don't shut it off from just apps. It's literally can come from everything you think looks cool. Even if you don't know why it looks cool, just save it somewhere in some folder or use an app for it to save it. Uh, just save it somewhere.
So just, you, you can reference to it and then you can find out, try to find out why do you think this looks cool and what is it that makes it look cool?
[00:30:01] Antoine van der Lee: Okay. So. Let's take this into an example, right? Like you just already gave us short of like insight into how you pick your primary color, but say, um, Hidde is, um, is building a new app for a certain hackathon and needs to come up with a, with a design.
[00:30:17] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah.
[00:30:17] Antoine van der Lee: Um, how, uh, where, where do you start? And how does that process look like? Do you start by really picking the color or do you start by building the app or like? Yeah, I think in my
[00:30:29] Hidde van der Ploeg: process, I always think an app in a way it starts with solving a problem, right? And a problem always fits a certain space.
Yeah. And. space, I always try to figure out what's the, what's the story of this space. Like, for example, if you have a banking app, that's a really easy example. The space is to, for you to get more grip on your financial, uh, uh, financial picture or whatever. And then. You want things to be clear and, and, and very, uh, very straightforward and not be too less fancy, less fancy.
Exactly. You just want to have clarity. Yeah. Um, so in that case, the, the, the styling should emphasize the clarity and not try to make things fancy because of the sake of fanciness. Um, however, if it's a more personal app, then you can see, okay, what makes something. Um, I, like I said, before we go, like you add scribbles, cause I think nothing's more personal, almost nothing's more personal than a handwriting, right?
Yeah, it's more playful because the default fonts are always already like round or whatever. Um, but nothing's you can, if you know someone really well, you recognize their handwriting. So having some form of like, Uh, of more of a writing style, a script style, it already makes it more human because computers don't have a handwriting, even though if it's a font, if course it is somewhat is, and I'm not telling you, you have to make your own font because that's a whole nother course, but at least think about things like, like, like those little touches and then how can I make things a bit more towards what I want to achieve with this app and that can come from anywhere as well.
Bye. to like, okay, uh, If I walk to, into a bank, it's also different than if I walk in, in, into a, a clothing store, right? Yeah, of course. They're, they're just different feelings to it. Yeah. And you won't always hit that feeling straight, straight away, but, um, keep trying until it feels right. Basically it's similar as what it is with, with coach, I guess, is to keep trying and those things.
Yeah.
[00:32:51] Antoine van der Lee: Well, I tried to pinpoint the process, right? Like we're talking about a new idea that solves one problem. Yeah. You are a designer that now knows how to code. Maybe there's a designer that wants to learn how to code. Yeah. Um, I think it's, uh, it's. pretty easy as a designer to lose yourself in, in the design process, right?
Like making the whole design first before knowing even whether it's possible to build, whether users want this feature, like how it is like, um, do you literally start with that whole, um, almost like design environment ID, or do you find yourself first building it? With just gray colors and then eventually putting a color on it.
[00:33:35] Hidde van der Ploeg: It's, I think this is really, um, a personal preference, but I like to write a lot of things down, like brainstorm about the idea a bit, give myself some, some space, not always jump into code straight away. Just really think about what, what am I trying to do here? And I, these days, I always design just in SwiftUI because I'm so familiar with SwiftUI and I just get things to work first and then.
Put this like nice sauce on top of it. Right. Yeah. Because. As soon as you get stuff to work, then you also get the feel of how does this app actually feels like, and it can be black and white and gray in the beginning, and that's fine, or just the default colors, just get, get to know, get to know your app really in a way, because it sounds a bit silly, but in a way, an app should have personality.
Um, and I, if I would first meet you right now, I would not know your personality straight away as well. I have to talk to you a bit more and I have to maybe spend some time with you to get to know you. And that's, it's a similar for designing apps. You have to get to know the app before you feel like this works well for this and that doesn't.
Yeah.
[00:34:53] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. And when you build something, you can immediately try out colors and get feedback of how it's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And especially I think for those that don't. know how to design, but do know how to code, this process works much better, right? Like, You have a way of getting somewhere without losing yourself in a design platform where you, which you probably have to learn as well.
Right?
[00:35:15] Hidde van der Ploeg: Exactly. It's another software to learn. And plus it also, uh, it's already working, right? So you don't even have to build and you only have to tweak UI or build UI around something that's already working instead of the other way around.
[00:35:30] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. The, the, the work that you do. In the process of going towards the design is not lost work, right?
No. Like you already make progress towards the real product. So in a way it's a win-win.
[00:35:40] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. You might move it to somewhere else because the UX is not right. But at least you have the functionality there and you can then, then also you can feel where should this functionality actually live.
[00:35:51] Antoine van der Lee: Right. Right.
And when, when do you decide, or you, you spoke about a custom pool, uh, pool to re Mm-Hmm. refresh. You know, that's in the early days, I think you just transitioned and, yeah. Everything
[00:36:02] Hidde van der Ploeg: needs to be different.
[00:36:03] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. And I know your apps are also quite fancy in terms of animations and stuff. Something that I can definitely learn from.
But like, where is the point where you decide like, okay, the app works and now I want to make it shiny and lose myself for a few hours into just making it more beautiful.
[00:36:23] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, Uh, for me, I always, uh, determine a quite a clear, like MVP or, uh, this is the minimal thing that I want to achieve for, even if it's just, even if it's a new feature or a new app, it doesn't matter.
Yeah. Just decide what's the minimal thing that it should do. And if I have that working, then I go start, uh, polishing and, and do some style exploration, I guess. Mm hmm. Um, and then animations always. Coming a bit later because animations really ties into how it feels. Yeah. It doesn't need to be snappy or bouncy, uh, things like that.
Um, and then again, I also already start very early on by making sure I have some sort of a system in place so that if I want to play with the style that at least I have to just change it on one spot. Design system. Design system is a bit of a buzzword, but I think it's. At least to have some form of, uh, standardization of, of this is the, the brand color and this is the, the, the title font and stuff.
[00:37:31] Antoine van der Lee: Right. That you have to change it in one place in your home. Yeah. Like
[00:37:35] Hidde van der Ploeg: corner radius, things like that. And like make some shadows, basic shadows as well. In a way it's a tiny design system because I guess it is. But I think I start with that quite early on because I know it will change and at least. I know if I change it, it will be consistent.
And I think consistency is super important, uh, to have a great design inside your app. Yeah. Um, cause that again is how it feels and, and consistency in how it feels is really important.
[00:38:05] Antoine van der Lee: So, and this is the style exploration as well in a way, what you, what you just mentioned. Yes, a hundred percent. Right.
And, and how does spacing play a role in this? Because I believe one of the, well, I'm, I'm a developer myself. I have a bit of a design background, so maybe I'm, uh, in an advantage there, but I know from the designs that I've seen from developers that struggle with a good design. Yeah. So a spacing. Yeah. I mean, you can pick a color.
That's not hard. You can pick a form that's default, right? Yeah. That's, that's also doable, but I find spacing something more tangible, something more, more harder to do right.
[00:38:39] Hidde van der Ploeg: I'd like to challenge that. I don't think it's always spacing. I think it's hierarchy that is the most problem. And spacing is a tool to create hierarchy in a visual hierarchy.
So what's important, what do you see first? Um, and there's spacing is often one that's, that's been forgotten the most because it's, it's, it's a bit scary. Like how much spacing do we need? Um, I mean, even if you start with default paddings and stuff around things, it's, it's already a great start. Um, but there's also things like visual weight, right?
It's like, if you can, you can make, uh, if you have a title in a body text, for example, you can make the title bold, or you can make the title larger. You can make the title different color. And those are already three different tools to make different, get different hierarchy in what do you read first.
Yeah. And something that I always strive for. is with every few, even if it's a tiny little few is to write down what's the goal of this few. And what's the most important of a part of this few. And by knowing what's the goal and therefore what's the most important, it's a lot easier to, to tone down other.
The, the, the other elements that do not add to this goal or even remove them because that's also a thing. We love putting everything in one thing, but sometimes removing, uh, one part of information or data or whatever. It is, is. Is already working better than making it a lighter color or smaller font,
[00:40:11] Antoine van der Lee: right?
So you really try to guide the user to watch the goal of that page. Yeah. Almost like, yeah, I want to use it.
[00:40:18] Hidde van der Ploeg: If they look at something, they, they clearly know what they can do and what they can read basically. Right. And I don't want to use it to have to use it to explore too much before. Be able to do anything.
[00:40:32] Antoine van der Lee: Right. Right. So I'm a developer. I don't have a design background, and I created a, I created, um, a page where, where I can fill in a new note, right? Yeah. Um, or, or maybe, maybe better. It's a form page. Mm-Hmm. or something. So I have a text field and another text field. And, uh, another one, I have a label in front of it and put like, like how do I go from that standard?
Well. view, which doesn't have any spacing and hierarchy in a way, or well, it has, but it doesn't work the way. How do we go from that into something that like looks visually? appealing and more attractive.
[00:41:11] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, I think one of the most important thing is like, how can I make it as clear as possible? What needs to be filled in, in, in a, in a form?
Cause a form is quite difficult. There's so many different of them, but like sometimes an icon can help, but not always. For example, if you have a name field and a URL field, uh, you don't have to have an icon in both. Because that's different. Uh, you can create different visual hierarchy already by making it slightly different.
So I could have a little link icon in a URL field, for example, and no icon in the name field because the name is quite. Easy to understand. Everyone knows what the name is. That's debatable. You can have first name, last name, but everyone knows what the name is. But with a URL or website, uh, it's already becomes a bit more technical.
So if you add a little link, I can, for example, it makes it already clear like, Oh, this is, uh, for this form to link to somewhere external and then. Already by adding that little icon in just that URL field, you make a visual, uh, difference and tell a different story in that form and therefore make it a bit more clear to, to what the user can expect to fill in.
[00:42:19] Antoine van der Lee: Right. You really have kind of like a tool set as a designer and try to apply these things, see how it looks. Yeah. See what works best.
[00:42:27] Hidde van der Ploeg: So
[00:42:29] Antoine van der Lee: I also have a personal blog and one thing I struggled with when I did like a CSS update is like, there's, there's a line height, there's paragraphs, there's the distance between the title and the paragraph.
And, you know, like I, with development, I can just search for a certain solution, but it's not that I can search on Google. What spacing should I use between a title and a paragraph?
[00:42:52] Hidde van der Ploeg: There are some golden rules. You have the golden ratio, of course. Of course. There's a thing called the golden ratio. It's been invented a long time ago.
And it's, it's like a similar to an aspect ratio. Uh, you know, you have 16 by nine. There's also a golden ratio. If you divide it by a certain number, it's almost like pie. It's a very long number. But if you divide the sizes between that, then it's always good in legibility wise. And there's. It's, it's, it's with like, it's not different than coding in a way.
There's a lot of these small rules that if you learn them, then, then, and apply them everywhere, then it always looks okay. It doesn't have to be goodness here, but at least it looks okay.
[00:43:39] Antoine van der Lee: So you're now saying I just have a cheat sheet. Yeah,
[00:43:44] Hidde van der Ploeg: I mean, every, every new skill takes time to learn, so it's, but you can, you can Google, uh, some of these design skills as well.
Just get to know those ratios is a starting point, but it's not, it's It's not that I think, Oh, the ratio is this because, and that's, that's how it works. At some point it's a feeling thing and you, you get to train that feeling or train your eyes in a way. Yeah. And you know, if it looks good or not and
[00:44:13] Antoine van der Lee: yeah, but this is the thing, right?
Like you look at the design, you're, you, you've been seeing that single page for, for two hours because you're building the feature and then you start to adjust the spacing and you're like, Oh, this feels so off. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I need to squeeze my eyes a little bit because it looks better or like come back the next day or yeah, it's, it's a lot trial and error, but also building up a feeling of, of what looks good.
It's home
[00:44:37] Hidde van der Ploeg: set training of the, of, of, of your eyes. And that's why I think designers these days are in a. I might be a bit biased, but I think designers these days are a bit in a better position than developers, because I think it's a lot easier to learn how to develop today than to learn how to design because design will always be training your eye a lot.
And. Of course, there's some theories, but it is still more of a training than coding. While coding is a lot more theory and a theory changes, of course, and there's a lot to it, there's a lot of theory, but at least it's, it's more digestible and easier to understand if you understand it. Yeah. It's less opinionated.
Yeah. It's, it's less, well, it's, there are still a lot of opinions, but it's, it's less of a feeling thing and feeling is very difficult. Yeah.
[00:45:31] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Maybe it's, well, the, the outcome is objective. Well, for design, the outcome is subjective. Maybe. Yeah.
[00:45:36] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. And even though, even with design, there were, there's always people with opinions, like the, Oh, the, the rebrand of, uh, of this is so ugly.
And the other one thing is really pretty. So it's, there was always, and therefore it's like, I think it's very, uh, famous quote for designers, how it feels, not how it looks. And that's a hundred percent true. And it's, it's, it's just. all feeling based and that's very difficult to train, but the only way to do it is by just trying out things.
And, and the way I started learning design is by copying designs that I really liked. Just plain, plain out copy it and, and then learn how to copy. And then from there on, understand why, why do I like this? Like what, if, if you make it yourself, the way, you like it, then you get to train that feeling. And from there on, you train, you do develop an own style as well.
[00:46:33] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, that's, that's a great tip. Um, and I think, I think it adds up to the consistency that you mentioned before. Um, if we talk in the world of apps, copying other apps, like system apps is what you do by just using system components, system fonts, don't lose yourself too much in a custom animation and those kinds of things, right?
Would you, would you recommend developers to Just stick to the default and focus more on the app functionality rather than.
[00:47:01] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. I mean, if you can make the default look good, you're already a step ahead. I think. Um, And of course the, the components are built, set up to look quite good and, and at least fit in with the, with the platform.
Yeah. So, which is also important, which is very important. Yeah. So I think it's a good start. And then from there on, maybe indeed, look at other apps that you really like design wise or designs that you think would fit your app. Yeah. And. Don't just steal it in the sense of, Hey, I'm going to do the exact same thing, but in my app, feel free to recreate it and understand why you like it and understand how you created it, because then you learn new techniques of, uh, certain design styles, and maybe you can apply those techniques slightly different to your own app, and then it's, it's, it's still somewhat of a copy, but not necessarily because you gave your own.
Yeah. Tweaks to it.
[00:48:00] Antoine van der Lee: It's a new combination. It's a
[00:48:00] Hidde van der Ploeg: new combination.
[00:48:01] Antoine van der Lee: That creates your personal juice. Anyway. Yeah. Because I, if I look at myself using system components brings me really far, but it's, it's only so far, right? You also want to create that personal touch that makes your app stand out or that makes your app, your app.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that that final step is often the most difficult for, for me. Non designers, like going from something boring. Oh, it's the most difficult
[00:48:22] Hidde van der Ploeg: for designers as well. Yeah, right. It's, it's, every project is different and every project has a different feel to it. And then you're like, okay, what are we going to do this time?
Yeah. And in the, in between you see a lot of other styles and, and designs and you've, you, like I said, I, I saved them. So I think. Still a good tips, like save things you love like aesthetically on the way. Always just save them somewhere. Where
[00:48:48] Antoine van der Lee: do you save them?
[00:48:49] Hidde van der Ploeg: Uh, I use a, uh, an app for it called, called raindrop.
I think I used to, I used to use a different app, but I, there's, there's not a lot of, you can use, even if you just store them in a Pinterest for Icare.
[00:49:04] Antoine van der Lee: Right. Just have a process where you can store something that inspires you at that moment, that you don't lose track of it.
[00:49:10] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah, exactly. Just save everything.
Yeah. And copy. Yeah.
[00:49:15] Antoine van der Lee: And then you will also create a place where you can get back to when you're lacking inspiration, right? Yeah.
[00:49:19] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. That it's where I start all my projects. Right. At the mood board.
[00:49:23] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. I think you also used Dribbble before, right? Yeah. I think what I like to do sometimes is indeed create a collection on Dribbble and just add You know, like I created the stocks app and I needed inspiration for a stock chart.
So I just went and searched.
[00:49:38] Hidde van der Ploeg: And the fun thing is with Dribbble, for example, a lot of those designs are not real apps, right? They're just concepts, but they do convey some certain ideas of how you could tackle certain bits of information. And I think that's a really good source of inspiration. It's like.
Every app has basically an app is nothing more than, uh, showing data or doing X, whatever. And then there's a lot of different ways to show that data. So finding the right way to, to show that data or most fun way to show the data is, is, is part of the journey. Yeah, yeah,
[00:50:13] Antoine van der Lee: yeah. You also have. several apps. Do you copy paste designs in a way or between apps?
Well, I do recognize your design across the different apps that you have. So in a way it feels like you did some copying there, but
[00:50:27] Hidde van der Ploeg: yeah, uh, sometimes a little bit, not too much. I tried, like I said before, I want every app to Challenge me differently. Um, but there's always basic elements that I, that copy over.
Um, I don't have a Swift package for it or anything. It's called hater UI or anything. Um, would make me proud, but, uh, I do that on purpose because I still like to, I still like my apps to feel slightly different, unless it's. Chosen not to like with a new app I'm working on now with a year timeline. I feel like it fits really well in line with my goal tracking app, because that's also your yearly goals.
So I kind of want to make that one feel like it's older brother or some way, or like at least be part of the family and then maybe sell it as a bundle. Then it's better to make it feel very similar. This is
[00:51:21] Antoine van der Lee: key, right? The bundle part, because if I'm thinking about like Microsoft Word. Uh, PowerPoint and so on, they all have the same feeling wise, right?
Like, and it also is kind of like a kickstart for existing users to get familiar with the other app in a way. Um, but I think the bundle part there. It's very important. If it's in the part
[00:51:37] Hidde van der Ploeg: of a bundle, it should feel very similar.
[00:51:40] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Otherwise they can have their own or maybe should have their own identity in a way.
[00:51:44] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. Yeah. Especially. I think, um, I think it's very important to, to make, uh, that decision, um, on style choices. If, if it's an app that, that is part of another app, then just copy, copy UI codes or make that Swift package if that's your thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's my thing.
[00:52:09] Antoine van der Lee: Um, all right. That was, that was super interesting.
I, uh, I actually plan to really ask you specific questions, but this whole process kind of like smoothly transitioned into a lot of like key, uh, Elements of what defines a good design. So, um, that, that's super great. I think we also inspired a lot of designers like, you know, don't be afraid to start coding.
[00:52:31] Hidde van der Ploeg: You can do it. It's easy. You
[00:52:33] Antoine van der Lee: get it. Um, what if you look now at your, at your indie journey? What are the biggest challenges that you might not have foreseen? Um,
[00:52:47] Hidde van der Ploeg: I think. Uh, what I found that the biggest challenge personally actually is, uh, coworkers, lack of coworkers. And I solved that by doing every now and then client work.
And now I do two projects together with a friend of mine. And I also share an office with, with Jordy and another friend of mine. So I solved it that way, but I found it at some points, especially when it was a little bit more, uh, Yeah. At some point you feel like, Oh shit, I've been building on my app for five days and the only person I've seen, uh, or talked about it with is, is, is my, I don't know, my girlfriend, whatever.
Yeah. And he doesn't even understand what I'm saying. So it's like, it's, it's nice to have at least, or at least have people around you that you can, uh, bounce back and forth ideas with. Like we have that IMATS, the famous IMATS group, but I think it's important to find some people around you that you feel comfortable with, to share early things with, and not to be scared to share with, or even build in public, you know, Uh, but at least get some people around you.
I think build a public is, is nice, but it's not, it's not, it's not personal. Right. So it is better to have one or two friends that are, they're also in the same field that understand your projects and understand your problems and just bounce back from it. if you have thoughts and ideas with that. Then try to do everything by yourself.
Yeah
[00:54:15] Antoine van der Lee: yeah they inspire you. They make you accountable maybe as well. And you can bounce back ideas but you also feel as lonely I think. Yeah exactly
[00:54:22] Hidde van der Ploeg: It helps, so I think that was certainly one of the biggest challenge. Other than that I still My indie life is very much I only do things that I really like doing.
Yeah yeah. And I hope for the best, really. I think you're, you are very well structured business wise, and I'm very much, maybe that's also still the designer in me. I still like to explore new things. I really love to explore new, new ideas, new concepts, and, and then see where it goes and ship it and see where it goes and, but also not be afraid Kill it or, or sell it or whatever.
Just don't hold on too much. I just want to have fun and in whatever I do.
[00:55:02] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. And that's maybe also the power behind your Indie journey, right? Like you're also not stuck to just work on your own apps. You can still, or you still do client work if you like, right? Like, um, Do
[00:55:13] Hidde van der Ploeg: the things you love in a way.
Yeah. Yeah. And
[00:55:15] Antoine van der Lee: I, I think it's super interesting as well. What you did is like joining forces with another Indie where you build together, which still brings back a bit of, um, Work. Yeah. That you did before. Yeah, but with more freedom. Yeah. And I think you shouldn't underestimate the power it brings. When you work together with somebody, the motivation, the accountability, the inspiration, the milestones that you get to achieve together, but the milestones are probably also much bigger because you get to work much faster.
I think that's, that's a super powerful way where you're still working on something that you like, you're still independent, but you don't do it alone. Right. Like, um, that's a super fascinating idea. And I think many, That wanna go in the, have the opportunity.
[00:55:59] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah. I think just don't try to do everything yourself.
Always. No. Yeah. You can't. Exactly. There's so much to do, . Yeah. And if, if it's nicer to do it with a friend, then why not? And also dare to dream big sometimes. Just, just reach out to. People if you want to like, maybe try to do a partnership or something. Yeah, just try it. If you don't, if you don't try it, then you will never get it.
And no, you know, the fun thing, if you try it now and they think you're too small still you can try again in two years, they would not know that you tried it no, two years ago. And,
[00:56:29] Antoine van der Lee: and really, really practical, right? Like I'm also working together with two friends now and one thing that we found struggling.
is, um, dividing revenue or income, right? Like you, especially when you're French and you know each other already, you kind of like want to say immediately like, well, we just do 50 50, but maybe, I mean, you are indie, maybe the person that you want to work with only has eight hours a week. So that's cues, right?
Like how, how did you, how did you challenge that? How did you handle that?
[00:56:58] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, well, I, I worked, I work with, with, uh, Paul for two projects. That's the only two projects I worked with him. But the one project I was, I've made myself already for a couple of years. Yeah. So I split it a bit more towards my side because it's only fair because I already invested so much time and I, yeah.
It was also a hundred percent my thing and he just joined because he loves the idea. And with Helm for example, we just do 50 50 because we were both there from the start. So we, we just both do it. He spends also a lot of time in, but he just spends it in his own hours and he spends it on the things that I really don't want to do.
So for me, that's, that's worth that 50 percent as well. Right. So it's like, yeah, I think it's, it's all, it's, it is indeed a tough one and I don't think. I've been, I've been lucky to work with a good friend like, like Paul to, so it was easy for me, but I think what's, it's always a bit of a business idea, like what's fair in this case.
[00:57:58] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Because if Paul now starts to work much more on it because there's more technical challenges and design challenges or something like that. Yeah. It's all a balance. It's out there. Maybe I'm inspiring Paul now to start the discussion again. Yeah, no, but yeah, I, I get that. And it, it, it needs to feel good.
Um, um, did you write something down together with him or something or no, no, it's all in good terms. Just yeah,
[00:58:24] Hidde van der Ploeg: we, we didn't lawyer up or anything.
[00:58:26] Antoine van der Lee: It's maybe also the question, right? Like if you have to do that. Do you really want to work together with her?
[00:58:30] Hidde van der Ploeg: Exactly. You should trust each other. I mean, we're really good friends as well.
So, we want this friendship to last. If it gets too serious, we probably will. But we hope it never gets that serious, honestly. It's
[00:58:41] Antoine van der Lee: almost like a relationship, isn't it? Yeah, it is in a way, yeah.
[00:58:45] Hidde van der Ploeg: I mean
[00:58:46] Antoine van der Lee: We
[00:58:46] Hidde van der Ploeg: will
[00:58:47] Antoine van der Lee: never
[00:58:47] Hidde van der Ploeg: divorce,
[00:58:48] Antoine van der Lee: we don't have to write things down.
[00:58:50] Hidde van der Ploeg: At what point do you get married? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:58:54] Antoine van der Lee: The contract is the marriage. The contract is the marriage. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I think this is, uh, this is a great way to, uh, to end this episode. Cool. Um, it was super fun. Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot for your design inspiration. I, um. Thanks. I need to look up that golden rule.
[00:59:09] Hidde van der Ploeg: Yeah, it's I'll share it.
Link in the show notes. There
[00:59:15] Antoine van der Lee: you go. Um, for people to find you, where, uh, where do they find you?
[00:59:19] Hidde van der Ploeg: Um, on Twitter. I'm at Hidde. Yeah, it's also in the show notes, I hope. Uh, and on Mastodon I'm at Hidde, uh, on the mastodon. design one. But you can also just find me on modemhq. com, I guess. That's my, officially my company's name.
So you'll find my apps there.
[00:59:43] Antoine van der Lee: Well, thanks a lot for all the inspiration. Thanks for
[00:59:45] Hidde van der Ploeg: having me. Thank you.
